I have a lot of thoughts about the PCA I need to ruminate on before public reflection, but I did want to say that a PCA friend of mine decries French (and often myself, and sometimes even Tim Keller) of promoting so-called “Third Way”-ism: “refusing to pick a side,” “unwilling to call things what they are,” etc being among the list of sins. He and I tussle over this regularly. It’s incredibly frustrating and disheartening to be required by our current political climate to have a strong opinion on each and every issue and to be militantly recruiting others to your side.
This was a difficult and necessary read. Thank you, Dr Tisby. We have been on the fence and visited other churches. I feel like it's just a matter of time.
I am sad for what could be and even more sad for what is.
I'm so grateful for you and your wise, God-given words. The Lord weeps.
I too have left the PCA church. George Floyd’s murder and the pandemic made me realize how out of whack it had gotten. It didn’t feel this way 15 years ago when we joined but now all the MAGA men in the church have beards and the misogyny has gone thru the roof. I’m ashamed that I supported this church for as long as I did with my time and money. 😞 I’m now in a wonderful PCUSA church and while there are a few MAGA people there, the men are not growing beards and it’s not misogynistic at all. It’s downright refreshing!
If a church tries to give the appearance of "peace and unity" by blocking justice and silencing the voices of dissent and free-thinking, then it truly has neither. It merely has a peaceful appearing facade and outward uniformity.
After I finished David's op-ed, I told my wife it seems like David came late to the party. He has admitted that what was always in the PCA milieu he didn't see until the adoption of his daughter and he nonconformity to the blind obedience to Trumpism and MAGA. When our family left sorta-kinda-loud from our reformed charismatic mostly-white congregation, I told my wife when we found another congregation, I had no desire to be in an extreme racial minority ever again. I hope one the lessons we and the French family have learned during these past few years is to listen to and trust the voices and perspectives of people of color and especially women.
That's right. The racism and fundamentalism has been there. But often, especially for white people, it takes a personal relationship (e.g. adopting a child from Ethiopia) to make these issues tangible and personal.
My friend sent me the article. I read it. This was my response to her. (And then I sent her your substack which I super appreciate.)
I grew up in the church that started the PCA and went to its high school. I’m in my 40’s now. It was always a toxic culture. I even felt it as a kid. Sadly, I think it even played a part in my dad’s suicide.
I’m glad this article was published. Of course the church supported him in Iraq (that church culture loves war.. especially against foreigners with dark skin), and of course he & his fam didn’t get as much support for being actual humans, especially when their daughter looked different. This culture fears difference. Change makes it feel insecure (and it feels incredibly insecure.. I think it’s generational trauma because rationally, it’s not insecure, just feels threatened very easily.
This article doesn’t surprise me. I’m glad people IN the denomination are waking up. I hope people like David French can understand the deeper roots around this… domination ideology.. which is in that culture’s physical brains, homes, theology, ethno supremacist practices, the way they treat the environment, you name it. It starts in their brains and the way they think about themselves and spreads outward. Maybe this will wake French up to where that type of thinking actually leads. I wish him well in his process.
And I loved what you said Dr. Tisby. This is why we should always listen to the voices of the marginalized.. because they bear the brunt of the decisions that those in power make. (Which sadly is inconsiderate of those they don’t see.. either through ignorance, denial, or cognitive dissonance.. again, suppression is domination.)The powerful who’ve suppressed/dominated their own brain space never see the full picture because they stay compartmentalized and delegate from the top of the mountain and never bother to go back down to the bottom to see where the boulder they’ve thrown off the cliff has actually landed. If the powerful listen to the marginalized, they’ll learn the consequences of their actions before it’s too late. And they should because everyone is connected. Peace is when the WHOLE is functioning together. Sometimes the powerful don’t want to know the WHOLE.
They have no clue, but that’s a choice. It’s sad because cognitive dissonance and domination kill. (We’re seeing our tribes currently playing this out in all kinds of ways at home and abroad.) Maybe Mr. French will also realize that he was doing just this by supporting the USA’s efforts in Iraq too.
Ands speaking of the marginalized.. this same “Christian” culture is complicit in killing off the oldest Christian community in the world in Palestine. Listening to those marginalized voices right now is also incredibly important.
Seeing, Listening, and being present to someone’s reality is the first step in Love.
I'm so sorry to hear about your father and that church community may have contributed. Thank you for sharing. The part about the church supporting French when he was deployed also stuck out to me and is very "on brand" for these types of theologies.
Also, seeing a lot of comments about misogyny.. yep. Usually the first red flag to show folks are functioning out of domination ideology (or what I like to call, the imperial self). Compartmentalizing and dominating (silencing is also domination) women is almost always the last thing to get weeded out, and runs rampant even in marginalized communities. Red flag numero uno. It always leads down to a dark path, even if that darkness is hidden at first.
My father-in-law was an RP turned PCA pastor. He was responsible for my late wife Jeannette saying that she would never marry a pastor...until she did-ME. Her only consolation for 42 years of marriage was that I was an RCA Pastor (Reformed Church in America) not PCA.
The articles by French and Jemar reveal to us how far white people have to go yet! When we look at the history of the PSA and PCUSA we can also see we came very far already, and, especially the PCA, have a long way to go to attain any semblance of equality and justice. Please study the history of the Presbyterian church by reading this book by Dr. Yoo: What Kind of Christianity: A History of Slavery and Anti-racism in the Presbyterian Church. Look him up on YouTube also. I'd love to be in the room when William Yoo and Jemar Tisby converse!
Very insightful article. I have experience some of the very same leanings. I worked at Grove City College for several years, which at the time was aligned as PCUSA, but the campus culture was definitely more in line with PCA, and perhaps even RP and OP. As a young campus minister working in a partnership with GCC, through a para-church ministry, I came across a version of Christianity very different from my own Catholicism, but perhaps not that much different from my time in the CMA Church. I went in as a life-long Republican, and left a few years later really questioning that affiliation. It was the time of the Clinton trials. Students wore black the day after Clinton was elected. I was in a culture that I felt confused Austrian Economic capitalism, confused that with the teachings of Jesus and the Gospels. Its political and economic conservancy was promoted as Christianity. While I worked with some great people, most really trying to live out their faith faithfully, they were shrouded in a culture that truly was more leaning toward white nationalism and charity work, than the Gospels and the work of justice. I was even told by the director of Admission, when I asked him why there was at the time, 0 Black students (some international students), he said, given their environment and location, why would they want to attend there. So they weren't even recruited. I am dealing with a similar tension of how to remain within the Roman Catholic Church, which has forgotten its immigrant roots and the diversity that came with it, and wants to ignore it history of colonialism, doctrine of discovery, etc.
We worked within a large non-denominational ministry you alllll know and my husband tells me there was much weeping and gnashing of teeth that day after. Phew.
I've read David French's article and your response, and I have a visceral reaction. I grew up a conservative evangelical Christian also, in the Baptist church. As a young woman, I had a call to ministry. My youth pastor said I would be a great pastor's wife; my mom thought I should be a missionary (apparently, even women can serve on the mission field!) I found a home in the PCUSA where my intellect and my theology and my call are affirmed. I know French's experience was bad, and it sounds terrible for you, too, Jemar - I know racism in the conservative church is terrible; I saw it when I was young. I can't guarantee that it is not present in the progressive church, as well, but God knows we are trying! Here's the thing, I wish you and David French also cared about the misogyny in the PCA. Why join a denomination that denied the gifts for ministry and leadership of half its members? Why do so many smart and thoughtful men find this acceptable? Racism, sexism, homophobia, Christian nationalism, it's all terrible.
Thanks for sharing. I care about misogyny in the church, too. I want to see women honored as full image-bearers of God, and living into their calling in the church which includes ordination and pastoral leadership.
Thank you for this response. I'm so grateful and glad to hear this. I was deeply moved to learn that you left the ordination system in the PCA, and I really hope you've found a healthier faith community. Peace to you.
Jemar, I too used to be a PCA member and elder and left the denomination 20 years ago. I appreciate the finer points of this post. David's story, while important, is yet one more window into seeing more clearly the systemic disease you've so faithfully written about—here, and in your books. Carry on.
"The PCA has always been very conservative, but not long ago there was some room for people who took a moderate middle position. Even a person like me who was vocal about race relations could find a place in the denomination.
Not any more. "
Wow do I feel this! I'm currently in the process of changing denominations as well, due to my old denomination's regressive/oppressive attitude towards women. Like you I still have friends and colleagues in the old church... but....
"The twin paths of fear and faith always lie before us. With tears and lament, faith may lead us away from the communities we once thought were home. "
Exactly. It's sad to say this.... but thank you for putting words to the experience, and for leading the way to a better, healthier place. [Ironic it was in my old church I was first introduced to your writings!]
"They warned us of danger on the Left, but it was the Right all along." This has been my own stunning realization, too, over the last ten years. But also: "And it’s true. Black people have been the proverbial canaries in the coal mine when it comes to racism in the church. Never forget the function of the canary. It served as a warning to coal miners that poisonous gases were in the tunnels. But the poison killed the canary first." So sad, and so true! Thank you for your faithful witness!
I feel so fortunate to be in the PCUSA church here: St. Andrew, Iowa City. We are inclusive and ‘progressive’. My group, Act Justly, works hard to educating our selves and the members. We still have more to do. We will show God and Country and advertise widely locally. I have plans to show 2 more documentaries, Bad Faith and Against All Enemies, before Nov. Jemar, I am working on getting you here on your book tour!
I Like that you began with announcing critic was against the institution of the PCA, and there are many good people within the PCA. My question, is the only way to “save” those good people for them to depart from the PCA cutting themselves off from the traditions of their people? Or are their other ways for them to remain in the “world” and continue the mission of Jesus Christ where they are?
In the PCA, I think you can survive in healthy churches and presbyteries. But if these places continue to lean into justice, they will always face the boundaries and borders of the most conservative elements of the denomination.
I worked at a PCA private Christian school in Nashville, around 95% white. After three years, it was time to leave. This was before George Floyd and the school had a dedicated section on loving "others" in its strategic plan. In the end, it was too much for them.
Schools can be some of the most difficult places, racially speaking. They can also be one of the best places for progress. I wish more Christian schools leaned into racial justice. Those are such important ages to address prejudice.
I have a lot of thoughts about the PCA I need to ruminate on before public reflection, but I did want to say that a PCA friend of mine decries French (and often myself, and sometimes even Tim Keller) of promoting so-called “Third Way”-ism: “refusing to pick a side,” “unwilling to call things what they are,” etc being among the list of sins. He and I tussle over this regularly. It’s incredibly frustrating and disheartening to be required by our current political climate to have a strong opinion on each and every issue and to be militantly recruiting others to your side.
This was a difficult and necessary read. Thank you, Dr Tisby. We have been on the fence and visited other churches. I feel like it's just a matter of time.
I am sad for what could be and even more sad for what is.
I'm so grateful for you and your wise, God-given words. The Lord weeps.
I too have left the PCA church. George Floyd’s murder and the pandemic made me realize how out of whack it had gotten. It didn’t feel this way 15 years ago when we joined but now all the MAGA men in the church have beards and the misogyny has gone thru the roof. I’m ashamed that I supported this church for as long as I did with my time and money. 😞 I’m now in a wonderful PCUSA church and while there are a few MAGA people there, the men are not growing beards and it’s not misogynistic at all. It’s downright refreshing!
If a church tries to give the appearance of "peace and unity" by blocking justice and silencing the voices of dissent and free-thinking, then it truly has neither. It merely has a peaceful appearing facade and outward uniformity.
That's right. "Peace" without justice is a false peace.
After I finished David's op-ed, I told my wife it seems like David came late to the party. He has admitted that what was always in the PCA milieu he didn't see until the adoption of his daughter and he nonconformity to the blind obedience to Trumpism and MAGA. When our family left sorta-kinda-loud from our reformed charismatic mostly-white congregation, I told my wife when we found another congregation, I had no desire to be in an extreme racial minority ever again. I hope one the lessons we and the French family have learned during these past few years is to listen to and trust the voices and perspectives of people of color and especially women.
That's right. The racism and fundamentalism has been there. But often, especially for white people, it takes a personal relationship (e.g. adopting a child from Ethiopia) to make these issues tangible and personal.
My friend sent me the article. I read it. This was my response to her. (And then I sent her your substack which I super appreciate.)
I grew up in the church that started the PCA and went to its high school. I’m in my 40’s now. It was always a toxic culture. I even felt it as a kid. Sadly, I think it even played a part in my dad’s suicide.
I’m glad this article was published. Of course the church supported him in Iraq (that church culture loves war.. especially against foreigners with dark skin), and of course he & his fam didn’t get as much support for being actual humans, especially when their daughter looked different. This culture fears difference. Change makes it feel insecure (and it feels incredibly insecure.. I think it’s generational trauma because rationally, it’s not insecure, just feels threatened very easily.
This article doesn’t surprise me. I’m glad people IN the denomination are waking up. I hope people like David French can understand the deeper roots around this… domination ideology.. which is in that culture’s physical brains, homes, theology, ethno supremacist practices, the way they treat the environment, you name it. It starts in their brains and the way they think about themselves and spreads outward. Maybe this will wake French up to where that type of thinking actually leads. I wish him well in his process.
And I loved what you said Dr. Tisby. This is why we should always listen to the voices of the marginalized.. because they bear the brunt of the decisions that those in power make. (Which sadly is inconsiderate of those they don’t see.. either through ignorance, denial, or cognitive dissonance.. again, suppression is domination.)The powerful who’ve suppressed/dominated their own brain space never see the full picture because they stay compartmentalized and delegate from the top of the mountain and never bother to go back down to the bottom to see where the boulder they’ve thrown off the cliff has actually landed. If the powerful listen to the marginalized, they’ll learn the consequences of their actions before it’s too late. And they should because everyone is connected. Peace is when the WHOLE is functioning together. Sometimes the powerful don’t want to know the WHOLE.
They have no clue, but that’s a choice. It’s sad because cognitive dissonance and domination kill. (We’re seeing our tribes currently playing this out in all kinds of ways at home and abroad.) Maybe Mr. French will also realize that he was doing just this by supporting the USA’s efforts in Iraq too.
Ands speaking of the marginalized.. this same “Christian” culture is complicit in killing off the oldest Christian community in the world in Palestine. Listening to those marginalized voices right now is also incredibly important.
Seeing, Listening, and being present to someone’s reality is the first step in Love.
I'm so sorry to hear about your father and that church community may have contributed. Thank you for sharing. The part about the church supporting French when he was deployed also stuck out to me and is very "on brand" for these types of theologies.
Also, seeing a lot of comments about misogyny.. yep. Usually the first red flag to show folks are functioning out of domination ideology (or what I like to call, the imperial self). Compartmentalizing and dominating (silencing is also domination) women is almost always the last thing to get weeded out, and runs rampant even in marginalized communities. Red flag numero uno. It always leads down to a dark path, even if that darkness is hidden at first.
My father-in-law was an RP turned PCA pastor. He was responsible for my late wife Jeannette saying that she would never marry a pastor...until she did-ME. Her only consolation for 42 years of marriage was that I was an RCA Pastor (Reformed Church in America) not PCA.
Wow. That's a deep, stark line in the sand. I'm glad she had boundaries, and I'm glad you found each other.
The articles by French and Jemar reveal to us how far white people have to go yet! When we look at the history of the PSA and PCUSA we can also see we came very far already, and, especially the PCA, have a long way to go to attain any semblance of equality and justice. Please study the history of the Presbyterian church by reading this book by Dr. Yoo: What Kind of Christianity: A History of Slavery and Anti-racism in the Presbyterian Church. Look him up on YouTube also. I'd love to be in the room when William Yoo and Jemar Tisby converse!
Thanks for sharing the book recommendation, Twila!
Very insightful article. I have experience some of the very same leanings. I worked at Grove City College for several years, which at the time was aligned as PCUSA, but the campus culture was definitely more in line with PCA, and perhaps even RP and OP. As a young campus minister working in a partnership with GCC, through a para-church ministry, I came across a version of Christianity very different from my own Catholicism, but perhaps not that much different from my time in the CMA Church. I went in as a life-long Republican, and left a few years later really questioning that affiliation. It was the time of the Clinton trials. Students wore black the day after Clinton was elected. I was in a culture that I felt confused Austrian Economic capitalism, confused that with the teachings of Jesus and the Gospels. Its political and economic conservancy was promoted as Christianity. While I worked with some great people, most really trying to live out their faith faithfully, they were shrouded in a culture that truly was more leaning toward white nationalism and charity work, than the Gospels and the work of justice. I was even told by the director of Admission, when I asked him why there was at the time, 0 Black students (some international students), he said, given their environment and location, why would they want to attend there. So they weren't even recruited. I am dealing with a similar tension of how to remain within the Roman Catholic Church, which has forgotten its immigrant roots and the diversity that came with it, and wants to ignore it history of colonialism, doctrine of discovery, etc.
"Students wore black the day after Clinton was elected." - Wow. And I'm sure you know my history with Grove City College :-)
Yes I do!
We worked within a large non-denominational ministry you alllll know and my husband tells me there was much weeping and gnashing of teeth that day after. Phew.
I've read David French's article and your response, and I have a visceral reaction. I grew up a conservative evangelical Christian also, in the Baptist church. As a young woman, I had a call to ministry. My youth pastor said I would be a great pastor's wife; my mom thought I should be a missionary (apparently, even women can serve on the mission field!) I found a home in the PCUSA where my intellect and my theology and my call are affirmed. I know French's experience was bad, and it sounds terrible for you, too, Jemar - I know racism in the conservative church is terrible; I saw it when I was young. I can't guarantee that it is not present in the progressive church, as well, but God knows we are trying! Here's the thing, I wish you and David French also cared about the misogyny in the PCA. Why join a denomination that denied the gifts for ministry and leadership of half its members? Why do so many smart and thoughtful men find this acceptable? Racism, sexism, homophobia, Christian nationalism, it's all terrible.
Thanks for sharing. I care about misogyny in the church, too. I want to see women honored as full image-bearers of God, and living into their calling in the church which includes ordination and pastoral leadership.
Thank you for this response. I'm so grateful and glad to hear this. I was deeply moved to learn that you left the ordination system in the PCA, and I really hope you've found a healthier faith community. Peace to you.
Jemar, I too used to be a PCA member and elder and left the denomination 20 years ago. I appreciate the finer points of this post. David's story, while important, is yet one more window into seeing more clearly the systemic disease you've so faithfully written about—here, and in your books. Carry on.
Thanks for reading and commenting, Charlie!
"The PCA has always been very conservative, but not long ago there was some room for people who took a moderate middle position. Even a person like me who was vocal about race relations could find a place in the denomination.
Not any more. "
Wow do I feel this! I'm currently in the process of changing denominations as well, due to my old denomination's regressive/oppressive attitude towards women. Like you I still have friends and colleagues in the old church... but....
"The twin paths of fear and faith always lie before us. With tears and lament, faith may lead us away from the communities we once thought were home. "
Exactly. It's sad to say this.... but thank you for putting words to the experience, and for leading the way to a better, healthier place. [Ironic it was in my old church I was first introduced to your writings!]
I feel with you, Peg! I am sure there's greater freedom on the other side of this painful process.
"They warned us of danger on the Left, but it was the Right all along." This has been my own stunning realization, too, over the last ten years. But also: "And it’s true. Black people have been the proverbial canaries in the coal mine when it comes to racism in the church. Never forget the function of the canary. It served as a warning to coal miners that poisonous gases were in the tunnels. But the poison killed the canary first." So sad, and so true! Thank you for your faithful witness!
Powerful, right? This stood out to me as well. Wishing you well.
Thank you, Julie. I appreciate your perspective, as always.
I have the same issues with the catholic church. I love the religion but not the institution.
Yes. Elements of the "Trad Catholic" movement mirror what's happening in the PCA and elsewhere.
I feel so fortunate to be in the PCUSA church here: St. Andrew, Iowa City. We are inclusive and ‘progressive’. My group, Act Justly, works hard to educating our selves and the members. We still have more to do. We will show God and Country and advertise widely locally. I have plans to show 2 more documentaries, Bad Faith and Against All Enemies, before Nov. Jemar, I am working on getting you here on your book tour!
I Like that you began with announcing critic was against the institution of the PCA, and there are many good people within the PCA. My question, is the only way to “save” those good people for them to depart from the PCA cutting themselves off from the traditions of their people? Or are their other ways for them to remain in the “world” and continue the mission of Jesus Christ where they are?
In the PCA, I think you can survive in healthy churches and presbyteries. But if these places continue to lean into justice, they will always face the boundaries and borders of the most conservative elements of the denomination.
I worked at a PCA private Christian school in Nashville, around 95% white. After three years, it was time to leave. This was before George Floyd and the school had a dedicated section on loving "others" in its strategic plan. In the end, it was too much for them.
Schools can be some of the most difficult places, racially speaking. They can also be one of the best places for progress. I wish more Christian schools leaned into racial justice. Those are such important ages to address prejudice.